To : Christian Raven
Subj : Re: Star Trek Sexism
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
On , Christian Raven (1:393/7@fido) wrote to Robert Lidgren:
CR>examining women it is OBVIOUS that they have evolved in the
CR>fashion they have due to FAR less workload than men.. thats it.
ROFLASTC!!! Thanks - that's the funniest thing I've seen all day.
You've been putting us on all along, haven't you? My congratulations on your
excellent imitation of a bigot. Now tell me - who are you, really?
--- msged 2.06
* Origin: StormGate Aerie/West LA Netmail Hub/HST (1:102/524)
Ä [27] SFFAN (2:463/2.5) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SFFAN Ä
Msg : 69 of 106
From : Darre LuAllen 1:3637/1 .˙ō 09 .åâ 96 15:35
To : Christian Raven
Subj : Re: Star Trek
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
On 02-07-96 Christian Raven wrote to Ecarey...
CR> perhaps they have... and perhaps woman as a general species are becoming
CR> more and more independant and assertive as they evolve.
E> Women aren't a species. They are the females of the same species men are
E> the males of.
CR> perhaps you are right there... women are not, scientifically
CR> speaking, a
CR> different species than man. however, they ARE
CR> intrinsically and generally different in many, many ways,
CR> both psychologically and physically. this is quite
CR> obvious, as (a) there has never been a female president in
CR> the leading country of the world, and (b) there has NEVER
Queen Victoria? Queen Elizibeth? Boadicia? Cleopatra?
Catherine the Great? How many world history classes DID you
sleep through. (assuming I understand your "female president"
statement)
CR> been a female weight-lifter even NEARLY as strong as a
CR> male. women are physically weaker, and mentally less
CR> rational, the latter which could be obviously argued to a
Do you think that fighting someone to the death just because he
insulted you is very rational? Or perhaps the rounding up of fellow
countrymen and imprisoning them during a war just because of their
ethnic origin is rational? Frankly, most of the women that I've know
have been more rational than the men.
CR> standstill... although there are many signs of this.
CR> E> CR>my entire argument is based
CR>on the fact that throughout history, probably almost to the
E> Your knowledge of history is limited and inaccurate. Women bear the
E> children, but in most cultures, women have had to be able to exercise
E> power and authority. Most "primitive" cultures have elders of both sexes
CR> no, my knowledge of history is not limited, i merely
CR> underestimated your own. but you are not entirely correct.
So, were you trying to us smokescreen tactics hoping that they would
not be seen through.
CR> yes, *some* women in *some* societies have been burdened
CR> with *some* of the male's responsibilities, but not many...
CR> for instance, women, whether african, or indian, or many
CR> other cultures, were never taught to hunt. some cultures
CR> even PROHIBITED women from hunting, for fear that their
CR> fragility might be threatened.
"fragility" - I'm not a woman, so I cannot speak from experience (nor do
I want to be able to). However, have you even considered the pain and
suffering encountered due to childbirth? I've had nasty injuries, but
never have I had a 6 to 10 pound object force itself out of one of my
smaller bodily openings. Frankly, I don't think that I could take it.
And if you think that you could do it and keep smiling, then you're a
superhuman mutant or a fool.
Most of the cultures you elude to have a strict policy of keeping the
people necessary to creating the future food gathers out of the path of
wild animals. Stop to think what would happen to a village if all the
women were killed off because some stupid hunter caused the animal to
charge the wrong way. Go on, I'll wait. (Hum. Hum. HumHum.)
Oh, your back. I hope you begin to see the point. As far as frailty, you
are too much a product of the modern times. Have you any idea how
difficult home labor was several centuries ago? Or do you know how many
women have helped in the food production of farms? How about all those
women who worked in the sweat shops during the Industrial Revolution?
I do not know how old you are, but remember that right after WW2, our
country evolved the idea of "housewifes." Before that, wemon who stayed
home did so because they had been trained in the menial and thankless jobs
required to run a household. Only during the last few decades have *men*
been breaking from a mold that they were pressed into in the fifties. We
have lived in a society which attempted to lessen one half the population
in status. You were probably raised with values caused by this paradox.
E> who are important in making decisions for the group as a whole. In more
E> technologically advanced cultures, women have often _in practice_ run
E> the households theoretically ruled by their husbands, while their
E> husbands were away doing other things - such as fighting the wars, or
E> dancing attendance on appropriate monarchs. This meant running the
E> _entire_ household, the male servants and tenant farmers as well as the
E> females.
CR> you are correct, but again, not completely.. yes *some*
CR> women have taken male roles, but their numbers are few, and
CR> the reasons for this go back to my original response.
See above. Also: By labeling these jobs as *male roles*, you are
clouding your own reasoning. These jobs are necessary for the smooth
functioning of a house. Typically, they have been assumed by the person
who could do them. The sex of this person was determined by *social*
factors, not physical or mental ones. You strike me as someone who would
have difficulty taking orders from a female boss or commander. Not really
your fault. It's just the way you were raised. During the middle ages, as
an example, a Western European family would be headed by a man. The Church
taught a subservience of the wife to the husband; the woman to the man.
When a man was called away to fight, his wife would take over the duties of
the house. In fact, many houses didn't realize there had been a change.
Men refused to follow a woman's orders simply because he had been taught
all his life that she was so much less that he was. It was a matter of
pride. (This is a similar condition as has been seen during the last few
decades.) However, many women proved to be capable leaders. Joan of Arc
immediately leaps to mind, as does Queen Elizibeth I. These women were
exceptions only because they stood up to the traditional teachings of the
times. Their abilities are a secondary concern when considering the
strength of character and bravery it takes to balk the organization which
can insure that your soul burns in hell for all eternity (think about that
for a moment).
I've run on long enough for now. I do not want you to take this as a
personal attack. I merely wish to provide you with some information which
might open your mind a little. Frankly, I don't expect to convert you, as
you seem rather set in you opinions. Oh, well.
Darre LuAllen
Champion of the
Open Mind
___
* OFFLINE 1.56 * Maturity is a fine balance of independence and dependence.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Cumberland BBS TN 615/526-3347 V34 (1:3637/1)
Ä [27] SFFAN (2:463/2.5) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SFFAN Ä
Msg : 70 of 106
From : Darre LuAllen 1:3637/1 .˙ō 09 .åâ 96 15:49
To : Christian Raven
Subj : Re: Star Trek Sexism
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
On 02-07-96 Christian Raven wrote to Robert Lidgren...
CR> This is ridiculous... the entire point is that there have been FAR more
[...]
CR> thats it. i dont care what else anyone has to say, if you
CR> want to argue with what i just said, i'm not even going to
CR> bother to reply, because i know that it is factual. xxx
If you dam up a stream and do not allow any new water to flow in,
you have just created a stagnent pool. When you let some of the water
out, only water undrinkable by all animals and people will come out. I
fear that you have done this to your own mind. You have taken your own
ideas and decided that the rest of existance is wrong. You have dammed
up you own mind's stream. Now only unpaletable water comes forth. Unless
you change your world view, you will join the ranks of the Self Styled
Ignorant and deselect yourself by walking in front of some vehicle because
you *KNOW* that it will stop before hitting you.
Science Fiction and Fantasy allows us to examine our own world without
naming names. No actual people need to be hurt in order to examine
a model of a social revolution. Thus, we can explore people's roles
irregardless of sex without rampling feathers.
Finally, you have the right to your own opinion. If you look at the world
around you and decide that women are weaker, then so be it. I'll defend
your right to your opinion even though I refuse to accept it as my own.
You are the one who has to live with it. You have to defend it from
attacks. I just implore you to open your eyes and see the world before
decideing it's wrong. You might surprise yourself.
Darre LuAllen
___
* OFFLINE 1.56 * Maturity is a fine balance of independence and dependence.
--- Maximus/2 3.01
* Origin: Cumberland BBS TN 615/526-3347 V34 (1:3637/1)
Ä [27] SFFAN (2:463/2.5) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SFFAN Ä
Msg : 71 of 106
From : James Walton 1:129/260 .˙ō 09 .åâ 96 23:43
To : Chris Carter
Subj : Re: Star Wars Novelizations
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
Re Star Wars novel:
> So you have a 1st ed., huh? I'd love to have a look at it. Of
> course, you'll want to put it under a salad bar sneezeguard so as
> to keep the drool off of it. :)
It's nothing special really. The pages are starting to turn yellow, since it is
a cheap paper back book. Lucas really didn't know what he had.
The cover features a large head shot of the original artist's concept of Darth
Vader. (Not exactly how we know him.) On top of that are drawings of characters
who generally look like Luke Skywalker, Princess Leia, C3PO and R2D2.
The book is in pretty good shape but you can tell that it has been read. In
fact 3 people read this copy before the movie came out.
From your reaction, I would guess that this book is probably worth more than the
cover price. $1.95? (It isn't within reach at the moment.)
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: ConFluence '96: Return to Mars! (1:129/260.0)
Ä [27] SFFAN (2:463/2.5) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SFFAN Ä
Msg : 72 of 106
From : James Walton 1:129/260 .˙ō 09 .åâ 96 23:51
To : Chris Ogniben
Subj : Re: Star Trek
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
>
> Are you stupid or something? It's pretty obvious that
Hey dude, CHILL OUT!
--- Opus-CBCS 1.73a
* Origin: ConFluence '96: Return to Mars! (1:129/260.0)
Ä [27] SFFAN (2:463/2.5) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ SFFAN Ä
Msg : 73 of 106
From : Elizabeth H. Penrose 1:129/26 .˙ō 09 .åâ 96 20:18
