JK> JH>> telepath involved? And didn't the doctor who saw Kosh go
JK> JH>> to the Rim, where he could run into Shadows?
JK>> There were actually three people involved. The doctor,
JK>> Benjamin
JH> Thanks for the refresh. How did Lyta scan Kosh through the
JH> suit, unless she's more powerful than Talia?
She didn't. Kosh opened the suit, allowing Lyta to make physical contact
with him (and I still maintain that she saw what was in the encounter suit as
well), and that's how she was able to scan him.
JK>> Laurel Takashima, the second-in-command, was involved in
JK>> the assassination attempt up to her neck, and she was the
JK>> staff member who was transferred out to the Rim (this was
JK>> something that JMS said in posts and the like); a lot of us
JK>> believe that she'll be back as a Shadow agent before the
JK>> story is finished.
JH> Sounds almost too coincidental, except that it's not too
JH> unreasonable to "sentence" someone to a distant post where
JH> you won't have to deal with them again (hopefully)... still,
JH> there could be a contact in Earthdome who knew she'd make a
JH> good Shadow operative... or she already was and was just
JH> going to the Rim to report and receive a new assignment.
That's one possibility. Someone in C&C let the Narn one-man pod that
brought the Minbari assassin onto the station through. Someone arranged it that
Del Varner, a man with five convictions for tech-running in the EA, managed to
arrive on the station and not get busted by security. Someone blanked out the
computer records on the problem with the transport tube that Sinclair had while
on the way to the docking bay to meet Kosh on his arrival. There's a few more
points here that could be made against Takashima as well.
John
......
If wishes were horses, beggars would be shoveling manure.
--- GoldED/2 2.42.G0614
* Origin: The Point Away From Home (1:163/198.5)
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Msg : 220 of 322
From : John Kahane 1:163/198.5 .тp 13 .юн 95 12:35
To : Jeff Hancock
Subj : Vorlon Immortality 2
ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД
In a message of , Jeff Hancock scribed:
JK> JH>> Surprised? I don't remember Morden seeming that
JK> JH>> surprised, he was as confident as ever.
JK>> Watch the episode again, Jeff, if you can. :) Morden was
JH> That one I can't, although I did see it a few times.
Hmmm... oh well...
JK>> surprised to see the Vorlon the first time and hid from him
JK>> in one of the off-shoot tunnels from the docking bays when
JK>> Kosh returned to the
JH> I remember that scene, more or less, just not that he looked
JH> all that surprised.
I guess it's really a matter of interpretation about the whole sequence,
isn't it? I thought he was somewhat surprised, and Joe has said that the
Shadows who are always with Morden tried to open the suit to find out what was
inside. That's how the suit got damaged.
JK>> He avoided Kosh for most of the episode, and the final
JK>> confrontation
JH> Was there anything else in the show aside from that and the
JH> final encounter to suggest that Kosh was trying to find
JH> Morden, or that Morden was trying to avoid Kosh? I thought we
JH> only saw them those two times.
That's right...but the evidence in the two sequences is clear. The first
time, Morden is avoiding Kosh as he comes down the hallway by going into the
side tunnel very quickly and quietly. The second time, Morden confronts Kosh by
Kosh's design, not Morden's.
JK>> with Kosh was the latter's doing, not Morden's idea. JMS
JK>> has said that it was the Shadows that are always with Morden
JK>> that attacked Kosh, not Morden personally, and that they
JK>> were the ones who damaged the encounter suit.
JH> I wonder when this will be "officially" revealed in the show.
I suspect that this may be revealed when we learn, in flashback, about the
encounter between Kosh and Morden in "SaP."
JH> You may not have thought that highly of _ItSoZ_ because most
JH> of it were things you had already figured out or had heard
JH> comments about from JMS, but there are undoubtedly fans
JH> without those contacts who hadn't put the pieces together in
JH> that way.
Oh, I suspect that's true. But the hints about Morden's origins have been
around since he first showed up in "SaP"; it's just a matter of fans paying
attention (something that has to be done in this series, because of all the
continuity and on-going plots) to what occurred in the past. Comments made by
characters also help in this regard...
JK> JH>> Which point exactly, that the Shadows were always with
JK> JH>> Morden, that the Shadows attacked Kosh, or that the
JK> JH>> knowledge was plundered before the attack? I'm not sure
JK> JH>> which part of your statement was confirmed.
JK>> Joe confirmed that the Shadows are always with Morden
JK>> (which was confirmed by Delenn in "In the Shadow of
JK>> Z'ha'dum"), and that it was the Shadows that attacked Kosh
JK>> and damaged the encounter suit in "Signs and Portents."
JH> Okay... you did say "latter", but it still seemed a bit
JH> ambiguous.
Yeah, I can see that it might have sounded somewhat ambiguous in
retrospect. At least, we've got this one cleared up now. Sort of like the
business with Delenn's bit about Kosh being Vorlon and the Vorlons being one of
the First Ones in "ItSoZ." It seems a lot of the folks who saw the story got
confused about whether Kosh was the last of the Vorlons and all that.
JK>> Morden's knowledge being taken by Kosh is the only
JK>> explanation of how Kosh could have known what happened
JK>> to the Icarus, and it's something that explains the
JK>> sequence that we saw in "ItSoZ"; the perspective we seem
JK>> to have is that of Morden, if you watch it more critically.
JH> True, and yet... The first scene of the Icarus flyby could
JH> not have been Morden, unless they'd spaced him ;-), the next
JH> scene was a pan sideways of the Icarus crew unloading and
JH> setting things up; it seems unlikely that Morden would have
JH> been walking sideways and watching the ship instead of
JH> exploring the planet, and then finally the exploration scenes
JH> with the lights and the uncovering of the Shadow could very
JH> well have been his POV.
The earlier scenes you mention could have been through a Shadow pov,
either from an orbiting facility or from a Shadow sentry of some sort. Just my
guess, at this point.
JK> JK> JH>>> But not everything was from Morden's POV...
JK> JK>>> The vision of the events of the Icarus landing on
JK> JK>>> Z'ha'dum were not all from Morden's view, but it's also
JK> JK>>> likely that a Shadow viewpoint was also part of that -
JK> JK>>> something perhaps that is part
JK> JH>> Hmmm.... But if the Icarus woke up the Shadows on the
JK> JH>> surface of Za'ha'dum, then how could a Shadow ship have
JK> JH>> been in space to watch the Icarus before it landed?
JK>> Perhaps it wasn't a Shadow ship. Perhaps it was an automated
JK>> system that the Shadows, once awake, could have awareness of.
JK>> Perhaps it was a Vorlon or other First Ones orbital scanning/
JK>> surveillance device. Who knows?
JH> Possibly, possibly. I would favor the automated Shadow system
JH> for the flyby; if the Vorlons were involved you would think
JH> they would have done something to prevent the humans from
JH> awaking the Shadows.
While this is a valid point, one of the things you have to remember is
that the Vorlons don't tend to interfere in all things. We've seen this over
and over in the series, and perhaps it has more to do with the cyclical nature
of the universe and history. I get the impression that it was just a matter of
time before *someone* woke the Shadows again...it's ironic that it's the humans
who did it, and it's even more ironic perhaps that the Vorlons are still around
to help the lesser, newcomer races deal with them again.
JH> The pan of the ship unloading could have been from an awake
JH> Shadow, perhaps after Morden (or whomever) had found it and
JH> thus shown out of chronological sequence.
Good thinking. One possibility that I'd not considered.
John
.....
I love the whirling of the dervishes.
--- GoldED/2 2.42.G0614
* Origin: The Point Away From Home (1:163/198.5)
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Msg : 221 of 322
From : John Kahane 1:163/198.5 .тp 13 .юн 95 12:49
To : Jeff Hancock
Subj : Vorlon Immortality 2.1
ДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДДД
In a message of , Jeff Hancock scribed:
JH> There's no need for Morden to have provided those images,
JH> since we're assuming the Shadows implanted the memories of
JH> the flyby and the ship unloading in his head then they could
JH> have added memories of the first person to see and wake the
JH> Shadow.
A valid point. I suspect that the Shadows do provide some of their more
trusted agents - of which Morden certainly appears to be one - with a lot of
information and a lot of memories. This could be part of his arrangement.
JH> On the other claw, this could be partially memories that Kosh
JH> took from the _Shadows_, not Morden;
Another good point, and certainly an intriguing possibility. That would
mean that Kosh is a lot stronger than we've been led to believe, but it could
have been due to the element of surprise that the Shadows with Morden
experienced. Kosh pounced, at the right moment, of course. :)
JK> JK>>> Shadows and their agents are telepathically linked (I
JK> JK>>> refuse
JK> JH>> Telepathically, perhaps... but whatever it is, I don't
JK> JH>> think they're always in contact. While Morden is in
JK> JH>> custody, you can see him doing something which would
JK> JH>> seem to suggest he's making contact with the Shadows.
JK>> True. And yet, go back to "Chrysalis"... that's the episode
JK>> where he's sitting comfortably and the Shadows are on
JK>> either side of him talking to him. He's not communing or
JK>> meditating in that sequence to contact them. It strikes me
JK>> that his actions in "ItSoZ" while in custody was a blatant
JK>> attempt to get Sheridan to see the Shadows.
JH> How do you figure that?
Call it a gut instinct. There's the sequence right near the end, when (I
think it was) Sheridan is regarding the screen, and Morden looks straight at
him...and smiles that malicious smile of his. He *knew* exactly what was going
on, I think...
JH> He couldn't have known Sheridan was watching, or would know
JH> what to look for...
See my thoughts above. :)
JH> My guess is that when he did what he did, it was basically
JH> a signal saying "okay, we can talk now" and during Chrysalis,
JH> they were already talking.
I don't agree with you here at all. Just my impressions of the sequence...
And I'm inclined to think there's more to Morden than we even know at this
point.
JK> JH>> Curiously enough, it looks as if he's making a triangle
JK> JH>> with his fingers... What if he has one of those Minbari
JK> JH>> widgets, or perhaps the Minbari got them from the Vorlons
JK> JH>> or Shadows in some
JK>> We don't really know what the triangular symbol with his
JK>> hands was, but perhaps it's something from Shadow and other
JK>> First Ones religions that has been adopted by the Minbari
JK>> (and perhaps other races). I doubt very much that he has a
